diff --git a/artemis-server/src/main/java/org/apache/activemq/artemis/core/paging/cursor/impl/PageSubscriptionImpl.java b/artemis-server/src/main/java/org/apache/activemq/artemis/core/paging/cursor/impl/PageSubscriptionImpl.java
index af29422667..6a272cf0d6 100644
--- a/artemis-server/src/main/java/org/apache/activemq/artemis/core/paging/cursor/impl/PageSubscriptionImpl.java
+++ b/artemis-server/src/main/java/org/apache/activemq/artemis/core/paging/cursor/impl/PageSubscriptionImpl.java
@@ -25,6 +25,7 @@ import java.util.LinkedList;
 import java.util.List;
 import java.util.Map;
 import java.util.Map.Entry;
+import java.util.Objects;
 import java.util.Set;
 import java.util.SortedMap;
 import java.util.TreeMap;
@@ -213,7 +214,7 @@ public final class PageSubscriptionImpl implements PageSubscription {
           pageStore.getCurrentPage().getPageId() == position.getPageNr()) {
          pageStore.forceAnotherPage();
       }
-      PageCursorInfo info = new PageCursorInfo(position.getPageNr(), position.getMessageNr(), null);
+      PageCursorInfo info = new PageCursorInfo(position.getPageNr(), position.getMessageNr());
       info.setCompleteInfo(position);
       synchronized (consumedPages) {
          consumedPages.put(Long.valueOf(position.getPageNr()), info);
@@ -809,7 +810,8 @@ public final class PageSubscriptionImpl implements PageSubscription {
             if (cache == null) {
                return null;
             }
-            pageInfo = new PageCursorInfo(pageNr, cache.getNumberOfMessages(), cache);
+            assert pageNr == cache.getPageId();
+            pageInfo = new PageCursorInfo(cache);
             consumedPages.put(pageNr, pageInfo);
          }
          return pageInfo;
@@ -822,7 +824,7 @@ public final class PageSubscriptionImpl implements PageSubscription {
          synchronized (consumedPages) {
             PageCursorInfo pageInfo = consumedPages.get(cache.getPageId());
             if (pageInfo == null) {
-               consumedPages.put(cache.getPageId(), new PageCursorInfo(cache.getPageId(), cache.getNumberOfMessages(), cache));
+               consumedPages.put(cache.getPageId(), new PageCursorInfo(cache));
             }
          }
       }
@@ -950,7 +952,7 @@ public final class PageSubscriptionImpl implements PageSubscription {
    public final class PageCursorInfo {
 
       // Number of messages existent on this page
-      private final int numberOfMessages;
+      private int numberOfMessages;
 
       private final long pageId;
 
@@ -1008,15 +1010,30 @@ public final class PageSubscriptionImpl implements PageSubscription {
          }
       }
 
-      private PageCursorInfo(final long pageId, final int numberOfMessages, final PageCache cache) {
-         logger.tracef("Created PageCursorInfo for pageNr=%d, numberOfMessages=%d,  cache=%s", pageId, numberOfMessages, cache);
+      private PageCursorInfo(final long pageId, final int numberOfMessages) {
+         if (numberOfMessages < 0) {
+            throw new IllegalStateException("numberOfMessages = " + numberOfMessages + " instead of being >=0");
+         }
          this.pageId = pageId;
+         wasLive = false;
          this.numberOfMessages = numberOfMessages;
-         if (cache != null) {
-            wasLive = cache.isLive();
-            this.cache = new WeakReference<>(cache);
+         logger.tracef("Created PageCursorInfo for pageNr=%d, numberOfMessages=%d, not live", pageId, numberOfMessages);
+      }
+
+      private PageCursorInfo(final PageCache cache) {
+         Objects.requireNonNull(cache);
+         this.pageId = cache.getPageId();
+         wasLive = cache.isLive();
+         this.cache = new WeakReference<>(cache);
+         if (!wasLive) {
+            final int numberOfMessages = cache.getNumberOfMessages();
+            assert numberOfMessages >= 0;
+            this.numberOfMessages = numberOfMessages;
+            logger.tracef("Created PageCursorInfo for pageNr=%d, numberOfMessages=%d,  cache=%s, not live", pageId, this.numberOfMessages, cache);
          } else {
-            wasLive = false;
+            //given that is live, the exact value must be get directly from cache
+            this.numberOfMessages = -1;
+            logger.tracef("Created PageCursorInfo for pageNr=%d, cache=%s, live", pageId, cache);
          }
       }
 
@@ -1117,18 +1134,32 @@ public final class PageSubscriptionImpl implements PageSubscription {
          }
       }
 
-      private int getNumberOfMessages() {
-         if (wasLive) {
-            // if the page was live at any point, we need to
-            // get the number of messages from the page-cache
-            PageCache localcache = this.cache.get();
-            if (localcache == null) {
-               localcache = cursorProvider.getPageCache(pageId);
-               this.cache = new WeakReference<>(localcache);
-            }
+      private int getNumberOfMessagesFromPageCache() {
+         // if the page was live at any point, we need to
+         // get the number of messages from the page-cache
+         PageCache localCache = this.cache.get();
+         if (localCache == null) {
+            localCache = cursorProvider.getPageCache(pageId);
+            this.cache = new WeakReference<>(localCache);
+         }
+         int numberOfMessage = localCache.getNumberOfMessages();
+         if (!localCache.isLive()) {
+            //to avoid further "live" queries
+            this.numberOfMessages = numberOfMessage;
+         }
+         return numberOfMessage;
+      }
 
-            return localcache.getNumberOfMessages();
+      private int getNumberOfMessages() {
+         final int numberOfMessages = this.numberOfMessages;
+         if (wasLive) {
+            if (numberOfMessages < 0) {
+               return getNumberOfMessagesFromPageCache();
+            } else {
+               return numberOfMessages;
+            }
          } else {
+            assert numberOfMessages >= 0;
             return numberOfMessages;
          }
       }